Comments closed.

First, if a person is a believer and they lie right before they die where do they go? Heaven or Hell?

What about tons of people that right now are fornicating that are believers? Are they going to hell?

I believe that homosexuality is a sin and I agree with you that marriage is between one man and one woman and it should not be remade into anything else.

As david and I have discussed before, there has NEVER and I mean NEVER been any support for homosexuality in the history of the world both religiously or secularly!!!!

With that said, we have to be extremely careful here. The Bible is very clear that ALL SIN is equal in the sight of God. All sin is deserving of death! That includes lying, having sex with a woman or a man as a man or a woman, or anything else that is SIN.

Now the question is this. Are we saved from hell based on our works or relationship with Jesus Christ? It is our relationship with Jesus Christ.

So though I believe as you do that Homosexuality is sin I think we need to be careful with automatically assuming someone is going to hell or that Christianity is a lie.

So if you see me in heaven, then everything you’ve known is a lie?

Does this mean you do not believe that grace is for all who call upon the name of Christ? Does this mean that John 3:16 is a complete fabrication? Is salvation by works or by grace through faith in Jesus Christ?

Please, if you do indeed wish to understand where I’m coming from – I’ve made it quite easy for you. If you ARE interested, then PLEASE take the time to read all of the links I posted, especially the ones on my blog (http://www.skippingtothepiccolo.com).

John and I have been discussing this for several years, and while we disagree, we still love each other as brethren in Christ. Even if we do think the other one is nuts!

I fully understand the religious opposition to gay marriage, and frankly, I have no problem with that. What we’re talking about is a legal marriage, not a religious one. There might be a solution that would work for everyone…

Perhaps we should consider removing “marriage” from all of the legal licenses and putting “civil union” on them instead.

This way, churches can marry whom they wish to marry (or not marry) as they already can, and the state is completely removed from the sacrament, leaving only the civil union, with equal status for everyone.

This way, no one is treated separately, and all adult couples can be united however they see fit.

http://www.truthwinsout.org

When we consider that every leader of these ex-gay groups has either admitted that they still “struggle,” have left with their same-sex partners, or otherwise met with embarrassing failure (John Paulk is a major example), it’s clear that anyone who’s gone through such “therapy” has very little real chance of success.

Finally, since I spent nearly half of my adult life in agonizing prayer for God to make me straight, it’s little more than patronizing to presume that coming to terms with one’s faith and sexual orientation is anything less than a massive internal war – that once the turmoil is settled, there’s absolutely no interest in turning back.

Those of us who are both gay and Christian embrace both — completely. While we appreciate the prayers, it’d be more productive to pray for something that’s more important – like reaching those who haven’t come to know the full grace of God!

Sure, there are plenty who have attempted to dissuade me from this life of absolute peace with my Lord and myself. Really, I have no resentment nor hard feelings. I do think it’s a little bit of a waste of their time – besides, isn’t it a bit selfish to ask me to live a lie (pretend that I’m not gay) just so they’ll feel better about me?

No thanks. Not interested.

If you’re really interested in just what I mean when I came to terms with my faith and sexuality, then I invite you to read:

http://www.skippingtothepiccolo.com/2008/09/are-you-sure-part-1.html

http://www.skippingtothepiccolo.com/2008/09/are-you-sure-part-2.html

This is probably a key point in the discussion between John (FightingPreacher) and me. Our perspectives on the issue are very different, but strangely, we’ve been good friends for the better part of seven years.

Let me answer a couple of quick questions he brought up. First, it was a discussion of Sodom. My point on the passage of the destruction of Sodom is that this kind of abject wickedness was not because of homosexuality, but because of the complete rejection of outsiders. For more on the topic, please visit an earlier article here:

http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/2006/09/16/christianity-and-homosexuality-part-3-sodom-gomorrah/

To be clear, the outrage toward the Mormon church is over a number of things, not the least of which is its hypocrisy because of the history of the “definition of marriage” within that particular group. Another point is that the Mormons have funded the lion’s share of the money on the “yes on 8″ campaign, which creates a number of legal issues, but I’m not as well-versed on that as I’d like to be.

One thing I’d like to clarify, though. The context of my article for the Romans 1 passage is written for gay Christians.

http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/2006/09/10/christianity-homosexuality-part-2-of-8-exploring-romans-126-27/

Romans was written to Christians, first and foremost. The passage in the first chapter literally addresses the rampant godlessness in society, and speaks of those who either completely rejected God and His law.

In reality, the US is not Christian (even if it was at one point, it isn’t now). It’s not Christian in its government, nor in its policies. We shouldn’t pretend otherwise. You might even argue that this is part of the problem.

Let’s be clear. No one is asking to be impure, immoral, or to reject God. Legal marriage is a vow between two people to become a united couple, and to share their lives together. The religious sacrament is one that is entirely separate, as it should be.

If someone wants to be promiscuous, no vow will stand in their way. If someone wishes to be stupid, and engage in risky sex, then that’s their prerogative. They put their marriage, their health, and even their very lives at risk. Such behavior is dangerous, and quite frankly, in my opinion is stupid.

While it’s true that many gays have rejected the Church, I can’t really blame them. Who’d want to be a part of any club that spends so much energy demonizing them and treating them like the dredge of society?

The bottom line is that unions between same-sex couples should be, and in some state, are … legal. This was listed as a right by the California Supreme Court, and then apparently ended by the Prop 8 vote.

This same right is now celebrated in Connecticut and in Massachusetts. Civil unions are performed in New Jersey, Vermont, and California.

I still ask (and quote Keith Olbermann’s wonderful piece), why, in a world so devoid of love, would we deny that love to someone just because they’re gay?

Same-sex relationships are perfectly unnatural… for heterosexuals.

But for those of us who are gay, it’s unnatural to demand that we live in a marriage of convenience just so we can be “correct.” It’s unnatural for us to live a lie, or to live a life of barrenness where love can never be celebrated. Finally, it’s unnatural for gay and lesbian men and women to have any hope of legal standing be stripped away from the tyranny of the majority.

Ours is a republic, where majority doesn’t always rule. And it shouldn’t. It’ equal, it’s just, and it’s right.

Why is it discrimination? Why is it that when a believer in Jesus Christ decides to follow what the Bible says that we are accused of discrimination? Do you think it is discrimination because it goes against your choices? What the pro-gay community has forgotten is that the African American community is deeply religious and believes what the Bible tells us about Same-Sex relationships. This is why John Kerry lost black votes. He decided to push the gay marriage issue and it hurt him in that particular group. Further, you assume that Marriage is right. Marriage isn’t a right but a reflection of God and His relationship with us. Here is where you and many of your friends go wrong, you assume that marriage is about you and your relationships and your rights. It is not! Marriage is about God wanting to tell everyone about a relationship He desires to have with them.
You go on to say
“…Parishioners everywhere will nod their heads as they’re told that God destroyed Sodom because of homosexuality, and never once read for themselves what really happened.”

So I am not sure how you explain this passage away but the only indictment on the city that is described is that all the men you and old desired to have sex with what appeared to be men. When we understand the Bible and history in its context you will see that there is no support for your position. You bring up Sodom and Gomorrah, without due diligence. The problem with Sodom and Gomorrah is that according to Genesis the MEN were wicked and greatly sinning (Gen 13:13). So as you read from Genesis 13 to 19 you find no mention of anything that they were doing. The first and only indication of anything wicked and sinful is found in chapter 19:4-5. It tells us that
“Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom — both young and old — surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.’”

I am not sure how you explain this passage away but the only indictment on the city that is described is that all the men you and old desired to have sex with what appeared to be men.
You also mention that
“Pastors tell their flock that gay marriage will lead to the downfall of society, and nearly everyone in their congregation will nod their heads and “amen” without ever once questioning whether such an absurd statement is actually true.”

Yes Pastors tell people that gay marriage will lead to the downfall of America. It won’t but what will lead to the downfall of America is the rejection of the Bible and ultimately the rejection of Jesus Christ! The Bible is very clear in this area and for some reason you and others refuse to deal with the weight of the Scriptures. Gay marriage is a moral issue just as Abortion, murder, thievery, and bigotry are moral issues. The Bible prohibits all of these types of things, therefore making it a moral argument.
So what is wrong with two men or two women getting married? The Bible says that they shouldn’t! That is what makes it wrong and amoral! Now let me clarify a few things. First, I don’t believe there is any difference between same sex relationships and any other relationship outside the bounds of covenantal relationships (marriage). So if two men or two women are engaging in sexual activities it is no difference than a man and a woman engaging in a relationship outside marriage.
The problem with the church in regards to homosexuality is that they have failed in keeping Jesus’ second command. Jesus tells us “LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” Homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin on the planet, but I am commanded to love the sinner! Jesus made his reputation by hanging out with sinners and tax collectors. The problem is that the church today would rather hang their hat on works based righteousness, instead of faith based righteousness. So it is no longer about who you know (Jesus), but what you do! All the while they are failing in their own works system because all of us have fallen short of the glory of God!
I do agree with you when you say
“We have been out of touch with the reality that churches have the most influence on a huge segment of our population…”

You are out of touch because what you believe is antithetical to the words of the Scripture, but the true problem is that you and others in the GLT community have been unfairly ostracized and demonized therefore you reject the very thing that should be giving you life! Ultimately Gay, Straight, Black, White, Asian, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, American, European, or Indian are all Children of God and should be treated with honor, dignity, and respect!
The second part that you talk about is something that we should all take notice of and then apply the same standard to those that are in the GLT Community. You say
“… and the anti-gay venom that’s spewed across pulpits all across the country has not diminished.”

This appears to be what your colleagues in California are doing. I mean rioting, taking and picking on black people, showing hatred towards the elderly that were there? It would appear their choices have infected them with venom against the people who don’t agree with them, Bible, and the Church. I don’t hear them complaining about Islam slaughtering homosexuals in their nations? I don’t hear them riot about the child molestation that goes on in Islamic countries or the persecution Christians, Hindu’s, and other religions face in Islamic countries. Why pick on the Christians who don’t believe that is the way God intended things to be?
It is interesting that when states have tried to legislate from the bench the Christians who don’t agree with the GLT community haven’t rioted, haven’t physically or verbally assaulted those they disagree with. I think it something of the character of those involved. I am sure that there are individuals who took some of the same actions those in California have, but they are the exception not the rule!
Now for my favorite part of your whole article! You state
“They’ll say “amen” when they’re told that Romans chapter 1 is an outright condemnation of gay relationships, and never stop to look at the context of that chapter, which is actually discussing the evils of idolatry.”

You are exactly right that the context of this passage is Idolatry, but upon further examination there are several significant holes in your explanation. We see that Romans 1:18 starts with the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against those who refuse to acknowledge him as God! Then in verse 24 it tells us that
“Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen.”

This is important for several reasons. First, because of their idolatry they are given over to the sinful desires of their hearts to SEXUAL IMPURITY!!!! Second, this is important because Paul follows the model of Hosea and links Idolatry and Sexual Immorality together! In the OT Adultery and Idolatry are almost synonymous and Paul carries that thought into the NT and specifically in regards to same-sex relationships.
There are some additional things that make your assumption about this particular passage of Scripture FALSE! In the very next verse Paul states
“Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

Let us assume that your interpretation of this text is correct and totally about Idolatry and that it has nothing to do with Homosexuality. That is fine with me. The problem you have is that the NT clearly states in this passage and others that men having sex with men is not natural and that women having sex with women is not natural! Regardless of the context being idolatry or sexual behavior Paul clearly understands that same sex relationships are unnatural!
I probably should mention some others things that are of note. Nowhere in the history of the world were female temple prostitutes used with other females, second in ALL of history both religious and non-religious was Same Sex Marriage considered viable or natural, not even in ROME until the last 100 years or so!!!!
I think the overarching problem is that the GLT has lost or never had a vision of what God’s purpose for the male and female inside of marriage is! It is about demonstrating to a lost and dying world that Jesus Christ desires to have intimate and personal relationship with each person. He chose to illustrate that through the relationship of a man and a woman, not a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

Xtreme Ministries
http://www.xtremeministries.com
“Bringing Grace to a Lost World”